MARSEILLE, France — Marcelo Bosch is weighing up the nature of sporting underdogs and how this mentality will aid Argentina in their Rugby World Cup quarterfinal with Wales on Saturday.
It’s mid-morning in Marseille, the calm before the storm of the weekend’s quarterfinal matches, and he’s been speaking non-stop for the best part of an hour about the sport he loves, Argentina and World Cups. His brilliant career took him from the obscurity of low-level rugby in Argentina and his home in Buenos Aires, to the Top 14 and Biarritz and then to the all-conquering Saracens. It’s trophy-laden, packed with international experience and the sort where he can sit comfortably in the famous Vieux Port and reflect proudly on a career fulfilled.
But when he considers the mentality of the underdog, and Argentina at the World Cup, it’s the first time he stops to think, considering his response.
“The nature of the underdog is a very interesting question because it touches the emotional side of Argentinian people. It touches the mentality that we have,” Bosch tells ESPN. “The thing is that we were always under those [other teams] because of our professional setup and structure in Argentina, we didn’t have a professional rugby league.
“So we were always seeking to play against the best teams thinking that, well of course they’re better, but we feel that we are confident in what we can produce. And this emotional thing and feeling that we always could perform gave us good results.”
Back in 2007 the Pumas started under the radar, but reached the semifinals playing a brand of rugby which drew acclaim from fans the world over. Then came 2011 when they ran into hosts the All Blacks in the quarters, but in 2015, they returned to the final four after defeating Ireland 43-20, emulating those 2007 heroes and threatening again to destabilise the established order.
The 2023 group are back there again, to some extent. They came into this tournament off the back of their historic win over the All Blacks in 2022 and a mixed pre-World Cup campaign where they won in Australia but also struggled for consistency. It was an interesting balance in their opener against England, who came into the tournament in dismal form.
Against England, Argentina froze in what was meant to be a 50/50 match. England had George Ford in inspired form as he steered 14-man England — with Tom Curry sent off in just the second minute — to a 27-7 victory.
“When you’re underdogs, when we are in that moment, as a rugby team in the sense of we feel that we are less, but deep down we feel that we can do it, it always bring the best of the team. I believe that perhaps against England, deep down — I’m not inside the team — it’s a feeling that we can’t manage in a good way to be the favourite.”
Bosch, 39, finished playing the sport in 2019. His array of honours includes two Premiership titles and two Champions Cup triumphs with Saracens. He will go down as one of the most respected outside centres of the modern era.
But there’s also a state of wonder to Bosch as he talks through his career. His memories of being coached by now Portugal coach Patrice Lagisquet back in 2006 at Biarritz have stayed with him; and as he talks through his memories of Biarritz and Saracens, there’s a sense he’s forever pinching himself to believe that what he achieved was real. Bosch was an outstanding outside centre, his wonderfully onomatopoeic name reflected through his defensive brilliance and accuracy off the tee from all over the pitch.
This time, he’s at the World Cup in a TV pundit role and rugby analyst role for ESPN and Star+, and has seen first-hand the changing face the sport. “A lot has changed in my opinion,” he says. He refers to the way teams prepare, and the data behind their performances, both individual and collective. “It’s getting more and more detail in every aspect of the game. And in the game itself, I believe as well has changed a lot. The World Cup that I played in 2011 and the one that I play in 2015, the style of rugby, both started to change a bit.
“I believe in 2015, you could see more teams playing with ball in hand. And suddenly that started to sweep again towards the kicking game. But in more and more detail nowadays, everything is, studied in a way, the preparation of how you see the opponent in every aspect of the game towards your game plan, even defensively.
“When you see teams nowadays, they have to execute under pressure. And before perhaps it was more a controlled defence, and now it’s a lot of line speed trying to put pressure on the opposition.”
He has loved being at this tournament, enjoyed the ambition of Portugal and the performances of Uruguay and Fiji. There are two quarterfinals in Marseille this weekend, with England-Fiji the second act after Wales-Argentina. Bosch will be there both days and on Sunday will be watching many of his old teammates running out for Steve Borthwick’s side including the man steering the ship. He played his entire Saracens career alongside Owen Farrell, and saw the youngster grow into one of the world’s finest players.
“If I was from England, I would cherish him, I would cherish a guy like that because he always tries to bring the best of the team,” Bosch says of Farrell. “He’s humble, hardworking and he tries to elevate all the team, because he wants to win. When you hear not only from me, but teammates at Saracens, at the English team, the British & Irish Lions, everyone speaks so highly of him.
“Owen is a leader. And when he sees the team not performing at the level he thinks they can perform at, he’s one of the leaders that say, listen guys, we need to be at a high-level of preparation and detail, but he won’t man-manage you. He’s a guy that will always remind you in every training session, in every meeting of the standards needed. I took it always in a positive way because he wants to bring the best out of the team.
“He wants to reach a standard that not a lot of professional players are willing to go to, and to go to that place, you have to be a bit obsessive about your job. But when you meet him, I would say he’s an adorable guy. He’s humble, adorable.”
Bosch also knows first-hand why England coach Borthwick is so highly regarded by everyone he has played with and coached. When Bosch arrived at Saracens in 2013, Borthwick was in his final season as a player. “He was my first captain [at Saracens]. And to be honest, I loved him,” Bosch says. “He was a captain that gave space to other leaders. He’s the proper guy to get the best of the team and of the other leaders inside and give the other leaders place to lead. We all became leaders; leaders in the line out, others from the scrum, others from the defence, others from the game plan, others from the decision-making, others from the bond of the team.
“When you have captain and coaches that are giving you the space for you to lead in that sense, it makes you feel I will take it with both hands. Emotionally you get attached to that because you feel that everyone is part of something special.
“Steve Borthwick was very quiet, but he led by example. Perhaps he could be quiet inside doors, but not so quiet when he has to say something. Some of those speeches before games were unbelievable. He found a way to touch your feelings and you wanted to play for that man.”
Before he watches former teammates Jamie George, Billy Vunipola, Maro Itoje and Farrell take on Fiji on Sunday, it’s all about Argentina and their mission to knock Warren Gatland’s impressive Wales side out of the World Cup. “Wales have a lot of urgency work rate around the ball,” Bosch says. “You can never underestimate them, they have a sense of belonging and a sense of fighting for every inch of the of the game.
“They are a patient team. They play in the right moment, in the right parts of the field. I think that they are very clear in their heads. I like a lot the back-row [Jac] Morgan, he’s an unbelievable player and he’s the new leader. You can tell they have experience and leadership.”
Argentina’s cause has not been helped by one of their star names missing. Bosch won 39 caps for the Pumas, and has experienced first-hand their ability to peak at World Cups but they’ll have to tackle Wales on Saturday in Marseille without their brilliant back-rower Pablo Matera.
“Not having Matera is a blow, not only the sense of his quality of but as well of his leadership, but things happen in the World Cup in teams. And it gives an opportunity to a player that is waiting for opportunity since a long time that is Facundo Isa.
“Look when the team arrived at the World Cup, they arrived in good shape but they were shocked by that first game against England. Since then Argentina, I felt have lost confidence. Argentina came to this World Cup trying to play a certain aspect of the game, certain way of playing with ball in hand and suddenly they had to recalibrate their way of playing. They managed to beat Samoa, showing good things, but not the full potential. Against Japan, I think that we started to see some, some shades of what they can produce most of all in attack, and they were good defensively. I think that they still have another level to go up. If they beat Wales, they’ll need to go up another level but they know deep down they can do it.”
It all adds to the narrative of Argentina being underdogs. It’s a familiar state of mind, and one they flourish in as the Pumas look to reach the final four in yet another tournament with their brand of fearless rugby.
“I don’t believe that we are the favourites at all,” Bosch says. “When now you see the path of the World Cup, I believe that Wales are arriving in better shape. I feel that they are the favourites, but it’s a quarterfinal and Argentina are peaking.
“If Argentina want to be competitive on Saturday, they need to go to another level in the sense of defensively they need to perform better, have a better kicking game in their 22, exiting after they receive from the restarts. I think that in that sense, the were poor against Japan, they need to build, they need to build up, play better. But if they do and if they have a better set piece, watch out.”